Lim Hock Siew
中文版：〉〉〉《改变中的世界》座谈会上的答问
| Q: | Many people in the Barisan were aware of the arrests in 1963, and you and your colleagues were expecting it. What went on in your mind that night? Did anyone of you consider running away before the ISD officers came? |
| A: | I think some of the Barisan cadres decided to run away and some did. But the top cadres were all arrested because we did not know who was going to be arrested. I expected myself to be arrested because I knew I was on the three lists of the British, Tunku and Lee Kuan Yew. The option I had was to run away from Singapore. We did discuss the idea of forming a government-in-exile but we dropped the idea because there was not much point at that time. We would just go in and fight it out in prison, hoping that after merger, we would be released. Then we would fight within the context of Malaysia with our comrades in Malaysia to have a socialist front throughout the length and breadth of Malaysia. We believed, at that time, with our united forces the left-wing forces we could bring about a radical change in the whole political context of Malaysia.
The fact that we were all suppressed has led to this present state of Malaysia where the feudal and conservative elements started propagating their racist policies. These racist policies would not have been able to emerge if we had the influence in Malaysia because our fight would be on class lines, not on racial lines. We would unite the Malay peasants and the Chinese workers to form a united front to overthrow the feudal system and the British. At that time, the British owned the rubber and tin industries and Malaya was the mainstay of British economic strength. About 400 million sterling pounds of reserves were brought into the British economy, more than what they had in India and Pakistan. They could not afford to lose Malaya. To them, Malaysia was of strategic importance. When Selkirk was quibbling about how to arrest these people when there was no evidence of communist links or subversion and that they were fighting strictly within constitutional means, he was scolded by the Colonial Secretary, Duncan Sandys. He said, "you carry on these arrests because they are for strategic reasons for the overall interest of Britain." It was a political decision, not a security decision. They wanted to secure British interests. They knew who were the real anti-colonial fighters. They knew if the left came to power in Malaysia they would have nationalised the tin and rubber industries. We would take over the main trade and industries in Singapore. The entrepot trade was controlled by the British, especially Sime-Darby. We were getting no benefits from all this prosperity. What is the government doing when it cannot take over all the economic interests for the benefit of the country? I will read part of The Fajar Generation here which is very important. The basic justification for existence of Malaysia was explained by the British High Commissioner, in his speech at Eden Hall at end of May 1963. He said: "Where do our interests lie? If we approach it from the point of view of enlightened self-interest, what conclusion can we arrive at? Here in Malaya, we have something like 400 million pounds sterling permanently invested, mostly in rubber and tin, investments which we cannot withdraw. This is far greater for example, than our corresponding investment in India and Pakistan. Gold earnings from rubber and tin are, I believe, essential for the balance of our payments." That was Britain's economy, that's why they were keen to suppress the left in Malaya. The British trusted Lee Kuan Yew because there was a secret agreement that if the PAP were allowed to take over power, they would not endanger British military and vested interests. One of the military interests, is understanding that Singapore was part and parcel of the nuclear encirclement of China. This is very shocking because it means Singapore had nuclear weapons stored by the British in case they attack China. How could you allow this? If you are an independent country, you could not allow this to happen. The Barisan Sosialis would not have allowed that to happen. The British knew we meant business. We were not people who just wanted to change flags. We wanted to change substance as well. The bigger fight was between the British and us. Lee Kuan Yew was not important. He was the British's man. |
| Q: | When you and Lee Kuan Yew were comrades in the PAP, what was your relationship with him? Did you, at times, irritate him? |
| A: | At that time, before we broke up, I could go to his house at anytime. Even at night time, I could knock on his door to see him. We discussed politics, we discussed the manifesto of the PAP. In one of his by-elections, I helped him with house to house
campaigns. We were on very good terms. Very often, after he had given a speech in the Legislative Assembly, he would ask me what I thought about his speech. We were on very good terms. I had nothing personal against him but he had a lot of personal things against me.
It was only after we broke up, that I faced him at two public forums. There, I irritated him. At the public forum held at the University of Malaya in Kuala Lumpur, he lost face. He was telling lie after lie and all I had to do was to expose his lies. He just couldn't take it. (Someone from floor said: In fact, he started attacking your brother.) |
| A: | My brother was from the Chinese school. He was a leader of the May 13, 1954 demonstration. He led the Chung Cheng School delegation and had been scheduled to hand the petition against military conscription of young men between the ages of 18 to 20 to the Acting Governor.
In 1963, I was 31. We matured very fast during the war years. We went through a lot of experiences. I was 14 or 15, we were thinking of how to free our country from colonial rule. We were living in a climate where everybody was fighting for independence. India obtained independence in 1947, Sukarno declared independence for Indonesia in 1948; Mao Zedong declared the People's Republic of China in 1949. We were inspired by all those events. Ghana and Kenya were fighting for independence. In Kenya, the Mau Mau were brutally suppressed by the British. We knew of the British tendencies to suppress us. We fought the British with our eyes open. In a way, we are lucky to be alive because you could expect to be killed as they were safeguarding their properties. They had no problem getting people to do the work for them. Note how they massacred the university students in Calcutta machine-gunned them in the streets. Where were the so-called merciful British gentlemen? You threaten their interests, they would defend that to the hilt. In Kenya, the Mau Mau were brutally suppressed. In Congo, Patrice Lumumba was assassinated on the orders of American President Eisenhower. This was revealed by the BBC. Eisenhower personally ordered the assassination of Lumumba after he was captured. It was a life and death struggle. You wanted to fight the British, you must be prepared to sacrifice your life. It was with that kind of spirit that we went in, and it was with that kind of spirit that we spent so many years in prison. It is all or none. You don't go in half-heartedly. We knew where we stood, We knew what we were up against. |
| Q: | The PAP was at its lowest ebb after the 1961 Anson by-election when Marshall won. You didn't think about merging with Ong Eng Guan to take over the PAP Central Executive Committee? |
| A: | We had 16. But our friend, Lim Yew Hock, would not support the overthrow of Lee Kuan Yew. And UMNO would also not overthrow Lee Kuan Yew. Every time we threatened to overthrow him, they abstained and 16 would not work. Every time we had a resolution against PAP, Ong Eng Guan abstained in the Legislative Assembly. Marshall always supported us. Marshall was the only one. Singapore People's Alliance (SPA), Lim Yew Hock and United Malays National Organisation (UMNO) would never support us. You could never win them. Ong Eng Guan would not vote for you, SPA would not vote for you, UMNO would not vote you. So it was left with 13 plus Marshall, 14 only. We were hoping to have a by-election in Sembawang when the Minister for Health died. I was suppposed to be a candidate for Sembawang if they had a by-election, but they never held it.
The fact is, before we were arrested, we were very busy preparing for the general election, drawing out the candidates, our manifesto and everything. We were not preparing for armed revolution. We thought we would definitely win the election. We wanted to preserve our strength to win the electoral battle. We refused to hold any demonstrations. We restrained our members trade unions were preparing to go on strike but we told them not to because we didn't want to provoke any trouble. In 1962, the May Day rally was a huge rally. About 100,000 people attended our rally in Jalan Besar stadium whereas Devan Nair's rally had only 2000 people and those 2000 were mainly Public Works Department (PWD) workers. They were given a day-off, food, transport plus pay. They only got 2000, whereas we got 100,000. The whole stadium was filled. It was a demonstration of our strength. In retrospect, it was not quite the right tactic. We should not have revealed our strength. Two months later, on 3 June 1962 , we wanted to celebrate National Day. PAP came into power on 3 June 1959. We were given permission with lots of conditions. You could not speak on this or that or they would come and interfere. We knew if we held that rally, there would be provocation from the PAP and there would be trouble. Then they would use that to suppress us. So we had a last-minute cancellation of that rally. To that extent, we were very restrained. We wanted to preserve our strength for the general election. |
| Q: | You said you were prepared for the arrest in 1963. Did you anticipate that you would be imprisoned for 20 years? |
| A: | No. When I said goodbye to my wife, I said: "See you in 8 years' time." The longest serving detainee then was Ahmad Boestamam who was imprisoned by the British for 8 years. I did not expect my imprisonment to be so long. I thought Singapore would merge with Malaysia, and I would not be detained for so long. But at the end of 10 years, I decided to make another 10-year plan. I wanted to be realistic. If you are not psychologically prepared, you would surely break down. As leaders of the movement, we could not betray our followers, we had to stay firm. Lim Chin Siong would have stayed firm if not for his mental breakdown. Poh Soo Kai, Said Zahari and many others were imprisoned for decades. It was no big deal. |
| Q: | If you were a candidate, would you have been arrested? |
| A: | Yes, in fact I was planning to stand in the Sembawang byelection. For general election, sure, I would be a candidate. |
| Q: | Why do you think some were detained for a long time, while others were not? |
| A: | You have to ask Lee Kuan Yew. The excuse they gave was that I refused to renounce violence. In 1977, I was approached by the head of the Special Branch, Lim Chye Heng, also former head of the Special Branch Wong Su Chi. Both of them came to see me. They said all you have to do is to release a statement to renounce violence. I asked: "Is there any evidence that I have been advocating violence?" I have been strictly following peaceful, legal, constitutional struggle. |
| Q: | Was the detention to prevent you from standing in future elections? |
| A: | We cannot win the election as an independent candidate. You must have a group of people supporting you. The Barisan Sosialis was completely dismantled by the time I was released. It was only a shell without substance. At the time of my release in 1982, the Assistant Director of ISD, Tjong Yik Min said: "Dr Lim I am not warning or threatening you. I am only informing you. I have a standing order from you know who. If you show defiance after release, we will put you in prison again without reference to the cabinet." |
| Q: | You were a high-profile case. |
| A: | I was adopted as a prisoner of conscience by Amnesty International. Lee Kuan Yew wanted me to leave the country. In fact when Gough Whitlam, prime minister of Australia came to Singapore, he told Whitlam: "These two doctors are good doctors and you can take them. So they approached me twice to leave the country. I said if I wanted to leave, it would have to be my own decision." |
| Q: | How was life on Pulau Tekong? |
| A: | Very interesting. I was at Whitley Road Centre. One day, the officer told me to pack up. They drove me to a road off Changi Prison. I called him: "Hey, you are missing the road. Changi prison is here, not there." He said, "No, no. We are taking you to another place." I said, "Where got prison on the beach?" So we went to the beach and there was a big boat. He said, "We are taking you to Pulau Tekong." It was a police boat. He said: "This is police boat number 1, the same boat Lee Kuan Yew used to
travel around the Southern Islands."
They took me to Tekong, gave me a house and said: "Now you are a free man." I said: "Now I can go home is it?" They told me to accept all the conditions for my stay on Tekong. I said: "This is a sham release to show the public, to pacify the international community." Prior to that, Lee Kuan Yew went to the United States. Jimmy Carter was then the president. Carter gave him just two minutes. Congress then demanded human rights. Lee Kuan Yew lost face. He had to do something. He sent me and Said Zahari to the islands to give the impression that we were released. Life on the island was better than prison. There were 200 people, all friendly to me. I was the only doctor on the island. All emergencies came to me. For the first month, they gave me $300, then $200 then $100 a month subsequently. After that they told me you have to survive on your own. Then they offered me a job at the dispensary, three times a week for two hours each. They would pay me $300 a month. I said in principle, I could not accept the job. I was still detained by the government and I could not accept a job from the government. They had the obligation to support me. At first I did not charge my patients. After some time, I had to charge for medicine and for my survival. I lived as though I was in prison. I had my own television and was allowed to write. At the end of the four years, they still asked me to write a statement. |
| Q: | How is it that your Rakyat Clinic is still around today when you were imprisoned for 20 years? |
| A: | When Poh Soo Kai and I were arrested (Soo Kai and I were founders of the clinic), another doctor, Ahmad Bakar took over. When Soo Kai was released, he went back to the clinic. Then he was re-arrested. After his second release, he opened his own clinic. Then I came out and returned to my clinic. |
| Q: | How did you keep your sanity during those long years in prison? |
| A: | It's a question of conviction. You know what you are doing is right. I am a socialist. I believe everything in socialism in a society where man does not exploit man. It is something akin to a Christian who believes that all men are brothers. And we should all live like brothers and sisters. The turmoil in the capitalist world all the financial troubles today, convince me even more that socialism is the answer to mankind's struggle. You are witnessing now, the end of capitalism. This is what Karl Marx said in the last century, that this is the self-destructive phase of capitalism. The contradiction cannot be settled. The accumulation of wealth is so concentrated in such a small section of the population that the majority cannot turn around, unless they turn the system around. That is why there is the Occupy Wall Street demonstrations. I believe in another year or so, there will be an intense struggle in the western world. Hopefully not in violence. Hopefully they can do it without violence. |
| Q: | Can you let us know which prison you went to? |
| A: | I survived many prisons. I went to Outram. It has been demolished. Then Changi, also demolished. After that Queenstown. Also demolished. I was in Central Police Station. Again that was demolished. That was the most horrible prison. Then I went to Moon Crescent, Changi. Then to Whitley Road.
I was in Queenstown for four years. We were locked up most of the time. Inside the cell was a tin can for your toiletries which we washed the next morning. At night we had chamber pots and a small bowl of water to drink The food was practically the same as that supplied to common prisoners. For over a year, they put me in a very luxurious place. The home of two top special branch men. One at Mount Rosie and another at Jervois Road. There I was allowed to live with the families as though I was a free man. They encouraged me to take walks outside, which I refused. If you did that, they would ask you to sign a statement. I knew they were trying to bribe me into doing that. |
| Q: | Are you optimistic for democracy in Singapore? |
| A: | I am afraid not. I do not see how this place can develop. Now it's dependent upon casino industries with all these immoral practices. Trade is dependent upon American markets. Chinese don't need Singaporean goods, they have all they want.
In fact they would want to export here. The only way to survive is with Malaysia. But the relationship between Malaysia and Singapore is so bad that I cannot think of a reunion. The ultimate goal of socialists in this country is to have merger with Malaysia. Of course many people will be reluctant. Merger? Malaysia that kind of country? So much racism? But that is the consequence of the lack of left-wing influence. If we had been in parliament in the past 40 years, it would have been very different. They have arrested thousands, not hundreds. They had to close down the Labour Party and Partai Rakyat all the top leaders were arrested. Dr MK Rajakumar, Syed Husin Ali so it is a free for all for those conservative groups. Now the Malays are awakened, that privilege must not only be for one Unless these groups of people wake up, there will be no change. We are optimistic in the sense that historically, we have to be optimistic. There will be change. How it comes about, whether peacefully or by violent process, we may never know. But change is inevitable. We cannot go on like this. |
| Q: | What was the reaction from people when Operation Cold Store took place? |
| A: | When we were arrested, the main organisation was destroyed. All the cadres were put in prison. The rest ran away or kept quiet. Unless you got people to mobilise, you cannot have any reaction. In 1956, there was spontaneous reaction when Lim Yew Hock was suppressing the Chinese school students and the trade unions. The riots were very spontaneous and the Chinese newspaper played up the repression. It was the Chinese population that rose up. People hated the government so much that everything symbolic of it was fair game for them to destroy. Lamps, postal boxes, anything. |
| Q: | What was your relationship with other PAP leaders? |
| A: | Toh Chin Chye was my lecturer in the university. We did meet to talk about politics. He was then chairman of the PAP. He knew I was a former member of the PAP. With Goh Keng Swee, there was hardly any talk. He was an aloof man. We did talk with Kenny Byrne and S Rajaratnam but not profoundly. We communicated mainly with Lee Kuan Yew. |
| Q: | You were a member of the PAP before the cadre system was implemented. Were you a member after the cadre system was started? |
| A: | Anyone who was pro-left was not made a cadre. I was expelled in 1959. I was not even a cadre even though I was a founding member. At that time there were three people in charge of reviewing membership. Lee Kuan Yew, Ong Pang Boon and Lim Shee Ping. When my membership came up, Lee Kuan Yew took it up, threw it into the waste paper basket and looked at the other two. They kept quiet. Shee Ping was subsequently arrested. |
| Q: | Najib recently announced that the ISA would be abolished. What are your views on why the Singapore government is so reluctant to abolish it, especially in view of the fact that the younger leaders will not have the stomach to use it? |
| A: | My assessment is that they are going to use the ISA as a reserve weapon to safeguard the PAP's interests. I believe they would have the stomach to use it if they are faced with the grim reality of losing the elections. After all, Lee Hsien Loong is groomed by Lee Kuan Yew. Monitored and mentored. When faced with reality he will use it. He might provoke you. And then use it as an excuse to arrest. I hope it will not be used but I think it will be their reserve weapon. |
（The People's Hero: Commemorating the 5th anniversary of the passing of Dr Lim Hock Siew, pp.290-301, January 2017.）
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2017年5月11日首版 Created on May 11, 2017
2017年5月11日改版 Last updated on May 11, 2017